00:00:00: Hello, everyone.

00:00:00: My name is Zagli and I'm the host of UG Talks, educational hopefully fun dive into GI world and beyond.

00:00:07: We are very happy to have you with us for another exciting episode.

00:00:11: So today we're talking about leaders most often inspiring mobilizing MacGyver's juggling crisis in everyday mishaps And sometimes taking an offer out a little dictatorship.

00:00:24: For this were coming Germany where our today guest leads his team Occasionally named online or COVID-xVIX president, who managed to turn a devastating situation into UG's advantage.

00:00:35: Secret party host and legendary past UG President Axel Dignas.

00:00:40: Welcome to UG Talks, Axel.

00:00:42: It's very nice to be here and being invited for this podcast.

00:00:47: I'm really happy to share some of the experience i had during this Covid time, which was probably unpleasant for all of us but we learned great lessons!

00:00:57: This helped our future shape ourselves a little bit.

00:01:03: We definitely saw your leadership outcomes that were outstanding... ...and also heard about the rumors.

00:01:12: Axel, one thing is boss and quite another thing is a leader.

00:01:17: What do you think it's the difference?

00:01:18: And how does a boss become a leader?

00:01:21: I Think there really are major differences.

00:01:23: in my personal opinion Bosses giving orders and expecting obedience.

00:01:29: The leader is more an inspiring and motivating person trying to foster collaboration and build team.

00:01:36: So i believe as leader, you focus and guide your people.

00:01:42: You use your influence properly... ...you're not self-controlled….

00:01:46: …you are more the Vee person –and a team is developing something– And this really will help to develop & achieve the results that you would like to have!

00:01:57: You coach your teams through mistakes and don't criticise them all the time.

00:02:02: You don't use the power to push people, but you try to create a vision and really move them forward.

00:02:10: So I think there are clear differences And perhaps in short... ...Boss manages tasks while a leader develops people.

00:02:19: The people manage then do different tasks.

00:02:22: It's also about the power dynamics, isn't it?

00:02:24: Then Boss is more hierarchical or vertical whereas the Leader is more horizontal.

00:02:31: I think this definitely holds true.

00:02:33: And sometimes it probably has to vary, so if there is a real crisis... ...sometimes they have to be very quick decisions and then horizontal may move a little bit vertical but overall you should have some people that can trust or exchange with them.

00:02:51: But let's say your big company leader or lead UG with like expected thirty thousand forty thousand people in the GI community, and even if you just look at our team in Vienna there are fifty-sixty people.

00:03:08: So If you really discuss with everyone on a big crisis where we need to make decisions for minutes or hours.

00:03:14: it may sometimes move but overall The plan is to be horizontal And take responsibilities In situations Where its difficult To exchange With Everyone.

00:03:25: Yeah, so it's like in the war time.

00:03:27: The military takes up with its hierarchy over political decision makers?

00:03:32: Yeah yeah definitely

00:03:34: talking about crisis you were the president when the covid hit us and most of either working in COVID-IX words and researching hydroxychloroquine or sanitizing cucumbers.

00:03:49: The focus was definitely not on polypectamase, enhancing your endoscopic skills of knowledge in IBD.

00:03:58: What were the hardest obstacles to overcome during that time?

00:04:02: I think there are really many faults And I personally named me the Virtual UAG President.

00:04:08: So, i think this is something which really happened.

00:04:11: you had a lot of disrupted operations and disrupted events.

00:04:16: all the things we or personally...I really like and love meet people create networks Meet with People in your Networks exchange ideas Had to be done In completely different ways.

00:04:28: so usually You have A cup Of coffee Have a cookie in The evening perhaps beer or a glass of wine and you exchange something.

00:04:36: And we were all put in our hospitals, even sometimes being put at home.

00:04:42: I think lots of operations events meetings were disrupted cancelled.

00:04:49: We had no in-person conferences.

00:04:52: The other obstacle was the beginning Technically not that well equipped, so now everybody and as we do it here.

00:05:00: We do a podcast... ...we do virtual meetings.

00:05:03: at this point of time A lot people had the technical equipment didn't know how to do it And sometimes people were probably also not happy with the crisis.

00:05:15: there was financial instability losing your income, for instance members of society.

00:05:24: We were thinking how we could continue all things that you are doing and something which is very important to me.

00:05:30: We have one of the best teams in the world.

00:05:34: our office in Vienna has a dream.

00:05:37: it's really perfect but We rely on also getting some income with meetings, with Congresses.

00:05:44: And this was all breaking apart and we had to consider how many people can still have working for us or not having worked in the past.

00:05:53: so there were really a lot of very important decisions going into it.

00:05:59: I remember when... took over my presidency.

00:06:04: We had one of these council meetings in Vienna, and we were meeting with all the different societies or the different representatives early in the year where at The National Societies Meeting And...we were discussing what I would do throughout My Presidency and like two months later….

00:06:22: …We're all isolated – we are being at home!

00:06:26: to change the whole world.

00:06:28: And I think this was really difficult with all these technology gaps, accessibility gaps new ways of communication and making everything publicly available.

00:06:41: so i think there was a lot of adaptation to the situation and empathy needed to get other people behind you in a world which is completely new for us.

00:06:53: So, now that you had time to reflect on your presidency and the obstacles and outcomes.

00:07:01: What went well?

00:07:01: And what might not have gone?

00:07:04: so... Well!

00:07:06: What do think made you overcome those?

00:07:09: of course with a team ?

00:07:10: And what are your focus areas as leader be it at home or leading a UG?

00:07:17: I think it may be even quite similar.

00:07:20: So, you need to become a leader and set clear expectations for the whole team.

00:07:30: You have to outline your strategy or some goals.

00:07:34: You also need to communicate those and then bring the team behind you.

00:07:41: For me, I think it's very important that you trust people and the people will trust you.

00:07:48: And for this... You need to be transparent.

00:07:51: Fair!

00:07:52: And i believe somehow consistent?

00:07:55: This was as mentioned not easy in these days because we didn't have knowledge things which are granted now, but nobody was knowing what was COVID.

00:08:06: We were reading different journals we were changing our opinions and I remember i told my people that today I may say this because This is the best of knowledge we have And in two days it will tell you something very difficult.

00:08:21: Don't think I'm getting brain dead!

00:08:23: Yeah...I just do What we know Today ...and we May change It!

00:08:29: Sometimes it happened.

00:08:30: So, remember the times we were wearing no masks because... ...we weren't having masks and everybody was telling us that's not important!

00:08:39: You can just take a piece of paper or something which will help but then you're not allowed to do so.

00:08:45: to go into any place with at least two or three masks and like what we are doing now because, well... We had it.

00:08:52: And some of us were even knowing probably that this was not of medical reasons but it just a shortage of not having the equipment needed.

00:09:03: I think in such situation is very important That you also see your individual strength and your individual qualities and you need to create a team.

00:09:13: There are always some people who are much, much smarter than you.

00:09:16: they have different experiences And You NEED TO COLLABORATE!

00:09:21: You NEET TO GIVE UP OWNERSHIP FOR THINGS YOU DON'T KNOW AND CANNOT DO BUT YOU NEED TAKE OVER THE RESPONSIBILITY team together.

00:09:29: And finally, when it's getting to on the directions you need probably... To make sometimes decisions and I think this is very important When your not making decisions that are needed That This may also break up a Team!

00:09:45: Then what i believe Is that You need to recognize The quality of the team?

00:09:51: You Need to let say sort of celebrate contributions Of individual members And what I personally feel is that you don't need to celebrate in the far end.

00:10:02: That for sure, You will do but small steps... ...you have to say that are proud and happy something was built or made up.

00:10:11: For this i think it needs to be very transparent fair and create trust within your team.

00:10:17: With this, you also probably promote psychological safety as far as you can not ensure that there is financial stability or safety for all of

00:10:27: them.".

00:10:28: So this kind of intermediate gratification?

00:10:32: You're splitting the end game to smaller parts so that you get satisfaction in the process too right?

00:10:41: I think this is very important because when you have goals that are far, far away and that seem not to be reachable.

00:10:49: You make them into smaller pieces so that you can get two certain marks And then you move one step further and one step farther... ...and you always have to recheck in such a situation When there will be conflicts, you have to solve them constructively.

00:11:06: To find solutions.

00:11:07: if you won't get the tool or technique equipment if you don't have the money and then always celebrate, get a team behind that can move on.

00:11:19: I

00:11:19: very appreciate every time when your boss is happy with your work and expresses it!

00:11:34: You had your vision and you do as a boss back in Germany, then there's the situation that you have currently.

00:11:41: What is status quo?

00:11:42: And what are coming into it?

00:11:45: There're all these interests from societies.

00:11:48: for me or team members could be financial.

00:11:51: It would be regarding

00:11:53: power

00:11:54: of influence.

00:11:56: how did you manage doing that time on how to manage this in your team Back

00:12:01: home.

00:12:01: I think there are several very important things.

00:12:04: what i personally feel is that you need empathy and the people who are really close with me know that I have a lot of empathy.

00:12:13: And sometimes, I even have to cry because I'm overwhelmed by either what is happening... ...because i am so proud or unhappy.

00:12:22: So this thing which is very important You need to be consistent In consistency.

00:12:30: if you have different rules for different peoples it's not good.

00:12:35: If can't communicate then you must be transparent parent communicating clearly, stay aligned with the core values in your institution or in your hospital.

00:12:45: Or in your family and there you need to be tough to do this.

00:12:50: And I think You cannot be ego driven.

00:12:54: Your needs To get feedback?

00:12:56: You can not really disregard feedback.

00:12:58: You Can say have a different opinion and we Have to discuss about This and i Think you Really have to practice humility admit that you yourself make mistakes and ask, invite your colleagues friends for honest feedback.

00:13:15: And what I personally feel when you are a leader or boss even worse some people may not really dare to speak to you and they don't tell about the mistake.

00:13:27: so like two three fellow friend who trust you and you can trust them, that they tell you.

00:13:36: You made now a major mistake.

00:13:38: this is not the way you should go And then you need to consider it.

00:13:42: sometimes your best friend may Not be the best advisor but if we have like two or three They all will tell you This isn't the best way.

00:13:51: Then you really have to reconsider yourself.

00:13:53: Otherwise I think you'll go in the wrong way.

00:13:57: You mentioned beforehand when we met that your second in command, actually you asked them if this right.

00:14:05: Is it okay?

00:14:05: Right?

00:14:06: Yes I definitely do.

00:14:08: and what is something which is very untypical for me.

00:14:10: so When everything started probably i was coming back from the echo congress And there We started to see That Everything will change.

00:14:19: Then The borders were closed.

00:14:21: My daughter Was traveling In Eastern Europe.

00:14:25: I believe it's now better to come back.

00:14:29: I see that all the borders were closed.

00:14:32: so whenever she left one country, The border was close behind her like two or three hours later.

00:14:38: and at this point of time... ...I think one of the first times in my life told from now on there are only people making decisions in our hospital.

00:14:47: It is me and my co-boss And we will always discuss but when you cannot agree i make a decision.

00:14:56: And I was really astonished because a lot of people were really happy that somebody was taking, as mentioned earlier.

00:15:07: I'm not sure if it's always the best decision, and tomorrow i make a different decision.

00:15:12: But this was really happy!

00:15:14: And the whole team was really glued together... ...and is still glued together since these times.

00:15:21: So you did enforce the wartime structure in your team right?

00:15:28: Yes, but I think everybody was knowing that there is always a way to do this because usually and this something some people also tell me it's the sort of mistake.

00:15:38: I'm little bit too weak and too nice because i listen to every body.

00:15:43: sometimes they told me you cannot get hundred percent under the umbrella.

00:15:47: its good if your have eighty five percent.

00:15:49: their are with someone who has different opinions to really get the different opinions.

00:15:55: because even somebody who may be... Not believed to be the best brilliant advisor may have some good ideas and we see it in our research.

00:16:06: There are certain people who never get funding because they were not believing this would a good type of research, later on came out as world-wide leaders.

00:16:18: therefore its' not always good what majority is doing?

00:16:21: sometimes brilliant minds has something that identify before the majority identifying.

00:16:28: so I personally.

00:16:29: You really have to consider everything.

00:16:31: Sure, and also it helps with the accountability.

00:16:35: I mean if you're always listening to yes-sayers... ...you could start to believe that's your godlike or something.

00:16:43: Yeah, yeah.

00:16:44: No no that's true and we see.

00:16:45: for instance it is much easier if you're in a big institution where there are lots of grants because those giving grants believe they were doing so good all over the time.

00:16:56: but certain areas in research have not been funded quite awhile And some most brilliant papers.

00:17:03: So I met this person who developed the anti-VGF structure.

00:17:10: He tried to publish everywhere and he was a surgeon, so surgeons are not really trusted to be world-breaking researchers.

00:17:18: So ultimately, he published in the Journal of Surgery... ...so this is what's due to Fogman from Boston.

00:17:24: And I think that paper was rejected by Nature by Science.

00:17:29: He told his story but it was rejected for everyone!

00:17:31: This was the whole background.

00:17:34: some of our most important cancer therapies.

00:17:37: So it's not always the place where you work or the funding.

00:17:41: You have sometimes, It's just the brain behind it.

00:17:44: The

00:17:45: surgeons will appreciate your sentiment of course!

00:17:48: I love the surgeons and we worked close together And for me is also so wonderful.

00:17:54: i was Just being in the States.

00:17:55: In Germany the language Is probably a little bit different but the surgeons Always say the physicians?

00:18:02: We are the surgeons.

00:18:05: All physicians are physicians and the surgeons are also physicians, like the ophthalmologists or so.

00:18:11: They're all physicians!

00:18:13: And for me it's always funny when they come up... The physicians do this as not being a physician.

00:18:19: Okay Axel we covered your end of the deal with being leader but what about teams entirety?

00:18:26: What makes in-your experience an successful team?

00:18:31: You need clear expectations and you need these expectations in an open and respectful communication.

00:18:38: The whole team, all the team members needs to communicate with this... ...you create trust and leaders for instance should lead by example.

00:18:50: they shouldn't be fair or transparent as much as possible consistent should really encourage collaborations.

00:19:01: And you also should accept ownership of different ideas, not everything is yours.

00:19:07: as I mentioned earlier and we had this also with UG in the person who would...I told them to will probably remember You lose together and you win together.

00:19:18: so you celebrate As a team and your also cry as A Team.

00:19:23: it's Not just individual achievements.

00:19:27: What I personally feel is very important, you should do something to leverage the individual strength of everyone.

00:19:34: So for instance if it comes to the detailed work i'm probably not really good!

00:19:40: I have ideas and visions but If I had to write ten thousand pages... ...I am happy when I get support But there are certain people who love doing this in a perfect way.

00:19:56: Everyone has personal weaknesses and has personal strength, so you have to really assign the tasks for each individual that are most appropriate.

00:20:07: And personally some people believe everybody needs do this same.

00:20:12: otherwise it's not fair.

00:20:13: but if we had a very young person who is able run like ten hours then they can't walk much than I think its ridiculous!

00:20:26: Some people are better in languages, some better at creating ideas.

00:20:31: So you really have to see this and then even if we had a team... You need to adapt to certain changes!

00:20:41: And personally I believe that i have very good teams but the team It's changing like every year, if we have a year not the full team but you know.

00:20:51: We had residents with fellows.

00:20:53: some stay.

00:20:54: someone will not say so there is a change.

00:20:57: when I started it was the youngest in the team.

00:21:00: now i'm getting closer to being the oldest and this is an ongoing change.

00:21:06: And when initially I was running with my team, and still running but i'm not the front runner now.

00:21:12: We go to parties and still one who is closing at a party almost closing the party At four o'clock or five o' clock in the morning.

00:21:21: But it's certain point of time you will probably not do It.

00:21:23: so I think there Is probably sort Of long checklist.

00:21:27: what creates A successful Team?

00:21:29: But I Think I mentioned The most important parts.

00:21:34: This is probably something which is important in medicine.

00:21:37: It's an ongoing learning process, you are never perfect.

00:21:41: when I went to medical school and thought now we have done everything at this would last for the next twenty years Now with half-life of our knowledge like six or seven months You really have to reinvent yourself And learn and do some things.

00:22:00: Also managing a team

00:22:02: Okay, so this is what's the perfect scenario.

00:22:06: But what about toxic leaders?

00:22:08: and when it becomes dangerous?

00:22:10: What do you think are most dangerous traits for a leader or in that case he isn't a leader.

00:22:16: maybe

00:22:17: I think something which is very bad if your just driven by your own ego.

00:22:25: So If You Just Focus Everything On Yourself This is probably not good, this when you are putting out the sort of bossy type leader and become arrogant.

00:22:40: I think what's also not good if your lack empathy so that you cannot bring yourself into a situation with colleagues.

00:22:50: We mentioned it's sometimes bad to be the only one making decisions, but if you don't make any decision.

00:22:56: So If your indecisive especially in a crisis or situation where You need something this will delay.

00:23:04: important situations Will create fear maybe confusing for someone.

00:23:10: so therefore you really need develop frameworks and consult Your colleagues.

00:23:18: What I feel is also very bad if it's inconsistent.

00:23:22: If you say today, this way tomorrow will be the other way and something which needs to be avoided because a breakup team creates dangerous situations that won't help at all.

00:23:41: Hopefully no one takes that road!

00:23:44: Axel, we would of course love to hear all those intricate stories and secrets that you hold but we unfortunately have two at some point.

00:23:54: And... You mentioned it!

00:23:56: At one point were the youngest in team.

00:23:59: so what was your advice for that younger version having this vast experience across the board?

00:24:07: What would be your advice to a younger self?

00:24:09: I think its several fold..you had look or at least I did it for me, i did look at my mentors and my leaders.

00:24:18: You have to take the best traits of these people usually its better like two three four mentors because always tell my colleagues you can never become as Einstein or as me.

00:24:33: every person has some good sides bad side take the best sides adapt them to your own personality because if you don't like to sing.

00:24:43: You cannot become a singer.

00:24:44: and for instance, I can not be a singer.

00:24:47: i'm very bad with this but im...i am great dancer so open all parties.

00:24:54: everybody knows it.

00:24:55: at all big parties.

00:24:57: i opened.

00:24:57: dance and love sports.

00:25:00: those who know me that in my spare time basketball team here in Frankfurt, which is playing in the first German league.

00:25:10: And I like these type of events and there for instance you can also see great leaders.

00:25:15: one of my big friends is The head coach of the german national basketball team who won that world championship with Germany?

00:25:23: This was for the very very first time!

00:25:27: The biggest thing about him Is That he's a great leader and the biggest thing is He believes In teamwork And even the best player was set to the bench because he was playing selfish and said, this is just good luck that you were making a basket over the full field.

00:25:45: You should have passed the ball... ...and then it would be one hundred percent two points!

00:25:50: Now you made three points but there's only luck in this game.

00:25:57: where I, for instance learned something from people like these in very tough situations.

00:26:03: Where you have the players... You have all of those people in their stands shouting and crying… And to be steady and calm – make your decisions and final moves!

00:26:15: Thank you so much Axel as well as for your time as Covid President of EEG As well as your time today sharing stories and knowledge.

00:26:25: It was a great pleasure and I love to see everyone at the next UAGW meeting in Berlin, Germany in October.

00:26:35: Yes!

00:26:35: And

00:26:35: we want to see those dance moves?

00:26:38: You definitely can.

00:26:39: This is also one of my ideas for creating parties.

00:26:43: Those who had been here last year, you had big party.

00:26:48: so i hope there will be further parties to come.

00:26:50: Of course We can't wait to see them.

00:26:52: So thank you Axel.

00:26:54: Thanks everybody for joining us and we will see you next time.

00:26:58: Thank You Eglé, wonderful!

00:26:59: Ciao.